Jesus in Isa 48:16

This is a comment I posted on a Jehovah's Witness' Yahoo 360 blog some time back, in response to a posting he still currently has on his site questioning the Trinity. I was turned onto this site by a friend who asked me what I thought of his post. I felt and still feel that he asked some really good questions and I really, truly felt, and still do, that he needed to enter into a discussion about the questions he asked, since he obviously does not understand Christian teachings. Its doubtful that he understands his own JW teaching either since it didn't take me long to discover that his questions came directly from one of his JW pamphlets, “Should You Believe in the Trinity?”, but I was hoping that he really wanted to discuss the topics he raised. Sorry, that was just a little sarcastic because JW's usually don't discuss or debate anything, and he was certainly no exception since all he did was delete my comments. Most unfortunate, but not unexpected. Why post questions or beliefs if you are not ready to hear some one disagree with you. Honestly, people that disagree with you make you think, and that's a good thing. Oh well. But I wanted to post this once I got into the Trinity. This is a little out of order concerning a systematic theological presentation of the doctrine of the Trinity, but I hope you will find some value in the post.

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The Trinity is such an interesting topic. It is misunderstood by nearly everyone. Sadly, too many Christians have no clue how to explain it, being easily confused by those that understand it even less, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. Too often people begin at the wrong starting point, giving themselves no hope of arriving at the truth. An example is that some people reject the Trinity simply because the word, “trinity” is not in the New or Old Testaments. But neither are the words omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresence or immutable, yet there is little disagreement that God is all knowing, or that He is all powerful, or present everywhere all of the time, or never changes. So the word not being in the OT or NT is a proverbial “straw-man.”

To be able to understand the Trinity, one must understand God's attributes, only then can we begin to see His great plan for mankind. Starting in the middle means that we have to redefine words and their meanings just to make our points understandable. That is where I started when I started blogging, but I got sidetracked into Islam and now feel compelled to start a series on the Trinity, and so I haven't really completed His glorious attributes. Unfortunately, not knowing much about them will be a bit of a handicap here, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. We will also have to deal with Jesus' subordination to the Father; it always comes up in the discussion, and frankly no Christian should be afraid of this topic either. But all in good time; we've got some ground to cover before we're ready to discuss that topic.

Also, let me state that this will be a series of posts because one cannot have a quick one liner answer to what the Trinity is, and properly make its defense. So, this will be the first part of my answer. I don't profess to be a theologian or a scholar, but I read and study continually. Likewise I don't profess to be an expert on non-Christian belief systems, but I'm not afraid to engage people when they knock on my door, or approach me in an airport, or on-line.

So, let's get started. By the way, I read the New American Standard Bible, so my quotes will be from that version. So, let's just let the real cat out the bag; what we really want to deal with is John 1:1-3, right?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3)

Now, before we dive into this verse - which will not be this blog, let' define exactly what the Trinity is, OK? I'll use my working definition from James White,

Within the One being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (from The Forgotten Trinity)

So, what exactly does this mean? Let's start with De 6:4:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Any definition of the Trinity must start with the fact that God is ONE being. First and foremost, Trinitarians are Monotheistic (James 2:19; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 Ti 2:5-6), they are not tri-theistic or polytheistic (three Gods), nor Modalistic (one God who manifests Himself in three modes of existence), nor do they accept Arianism (the Son being subordinated to the Father).

The second tenet of the Trinity is that there are three who are God. There are three distinct persons within the divine essence. All three persons exist at the same time. (Is 48:16; 61:1-2; Mt 3:16-17) This is where we're going to spend the bulk of our time. Because its were the real questions are, and the real confusion.

The third tenet of the Trinity is that Scripture joins the three together in unity and equality (Mt 28:19-20; 1 Cor 8:6; 2 Cor 13:14; John 5:21-23; Mt 12:31, Rom 8:39). This can be seen in nearly ever book of the NT, and I'll give plenty of examples. But not before we deal with point two.

So, let me make clear what I am NOT saying. Unlike some people that think mankind can attain god-hood, or others that, once pressed, will admit that Jesus is a “lesser” god, Trinitarians believe that God is one being who exists as three persons. We do not believe that God changes into the Son some times, and into the Holy Spirit at other times. God the Father always exists and has always existed, the same is true of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Likewise, we do not believe that Jesus is subordinate to the Father; He willingly subordinated Himself to the Father while on earth, which is something totally different altogether. Jesus was never an angel; angels are created beings and cannot change there state. Each – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – have an eternal role, which was fulfilled and brought to consummation in the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ Jesus.

As we all know, the real question is not about the Father, its about the role of the Son and the Holy Spirit. But once the point is made about who Christ is, its not that hard to see the role of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead. So, the question is really boiled down to, “Who and what is Jesus?” So that's where we'll start. By the way, Athenaeus covered all of this in the 4th century when he stood against the Arian heresy, which took another 50 to 75 yrs to be worked out into the church (it was actually longer than that). He left us a record of this struggle, On the Incarnation. Its worth the read, if you have the time. And he didn't even use John 1:1 to defend the deity of Christ!

I want to start our discussion with Isa 48:16, because there is something quite unique for us to see here.

“Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (Isa 48:16)

This is a most interesting verse, because, first, its in the OT, and second, it talks about all three person's of the Godhead in one verse. Now I know what you will say, “But this is all about King Cyrus, not Jesus!” Yes, that is true, but as with other passages in the OT its not only about King Cyrus, as you will see as we go through this passage. Some will focus on the supposed subordination aspect seen at the end of this verse, and will miss the third important aspect about this verse. And what is that? It's that this is Jesus speaking in the OT. Now for the real trip: go back to Isa 45:18. Now read the whole section in context up to and including Isa 48:16. What makes this narrative so unique is that this is one long quote of Jesus. I know your first reaction will be, “No way!” Yes, way! One long quote of Jesus. Honestly, I had never seen this before just the other day. So, how can you tell this is true? Everything is first person from Isa 45:18 to 48:16. Its really quite remarkable.

So what is said in this passage? Well, let's just see.

The last sentence of Isa 45:18 says: “I am the LORD, and there is none else.” The word “Lord” is the word, Jehovah, or more appropriately, “Yahweh.” Jesus states, “I am Jehovah or Yahweh, and there is no other.”

Now let's start reading from 45:18. Let's pause at 45:21-23:

"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

The end of verse 21 says “Is it not I, the LORD (Yahweh)? And there is no other God (Elohiym) besides Me, A righteous God (Elohiym) and a Savior; There is none except Me.” At some point we'll need to deal with just what it means to be a Savior, but we'll save that for a future discussion. Right now what we see is Jesus once again stating that He is the one and only Yahweh/Jehovah, and there is no other. And in verse 22, He repeats it again, “For I am God, and there is no other”. And at the end of verse 23 we see another direct reference to who is speaking with a familiar passage that we here Him saying in the NT, “That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.” (See Rom 14:11; Php 2:10)

Let continue reading and pause at Isa 46:9-10.

Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’

This is Jesus saying once again saying, “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.” Not only that – as if that's not enough – Jesus is talking about establishing His purposes, and accomplishing His will. Isn't that cool! What's more, isn't that a bit surprising? Did you expect to see Jesus speaking in the OT like this? If you didn't expect it, you should have, because there is nothing new in the New Testament. The same God of the OT is in the NT. Let's continue reading, and pause again at 46:13.

I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off; And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, And My glory for Israel.

Here we see that Jesus is bringing His righteousness, and His salvation, and His glory. But I thought only God brought salvation; only He could save? Yes, that's exactly right – only God can save mankind, because Jesus is – go ahead, finish it – Jesus is God. Let's continue reading and pause again at 48:9.

For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off.

Again, it is Jesus that is talking about His name, His wrath to come, and the restraining of His wrath. Because He doesn't anyone to miss out on Salvation. Let's continue reading, pausing again at 48:12-13.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

Jesus calls Himself the first and the last, much like He does in Revelations (Rev 1:17; 2:8; 22:13; you might also check out 1 Cor 15:45). He says that it is He that called Israel, and He says that He is the one that founded the earth and spread out the heavens; in other words, creator of all (Col 1:16). As we have read this together, there is little doubt about who is speaking, and what He has said and implied. Jesus has said that He is God, and there is none like Him. There is little doubt as to who is being referenced in this passage. Some will fight its obvious meaning, but it clearly states that Jesus is God Almighty, “Elohiym”.

Now I would think that a Jehovah's Witness would be ready to pounce right now, so let's go there to answer the question, OK? You see, a JW would not disagree that Jesus created the heavens and the earth. They have gone through great lengths to add the word “other”into Colossians 1:15-18, like 4 times, making Him creator of all “other” things. But how would they be able to escape the clear passage above that Jesus is calling Himself “Elohiym” God? He does the same thing in the NT, but we're not there yet. What I would like to ask a JW is, taking the above passages in context, what do you now do with Isa 44:24:

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

If Jesus is the creator of the heavens and the earth, then He would be speaking above as well, right? In Isa 46:13, it is Jesus that brings salvation, right? Which means He is the “redeemer” here, right? I would also ask, “Who is speaking in Isa 48:17-19?”

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go. If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea. Your descendants would have been like the sand, And your offspring like its grains; Their name would never be cut off or destroyed from My presence."

So, what we've seen in this passage is Jesus calling Himself God, and God alone. One time, you might be able to explain it away, but 5 times?! There's a much deeper meaning here, and there is no way to explain ita way as an anomaly, or reading something into a passage. No, Jesus is Jehovah or Yahweh, that is clear from this passage. But there is more and we can examine that next time.

Concerning the doctrine of the Trinity, we are nowhere close to proving it with the exception that we have shown pretty conclusively that Jesus is presented as God in the OT, and not “a god”, but the God. As I said in the beginning, to understand the Trinity, we must understand who and what Jesus is. Only with this as a backdrop can we hope to understand what and who He really is. And that will help us understand if the Trinity is or is not true.

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So that was my response to a JW's blog post. As I said, instead of a reply, a debate, or disagreement, I was summarily deleted, but not unexpectedly. Why discuss anything with some one with a brain when you're only interested in cherry picking the uneducated people of the world? And that is the sad facts about today's JW's. They never want to talk to knowledgeable Christians (throwing pearls to the swines, don't you know), and that really isn't very unexpected either. No one likes to be told that their wrong, and that is the risk that you run when you discuss your beliefs with others. Its the risk that I willingly embrace with my posts. I purposely step a little too close to the lines sometimes because I want people to think; I want people to know what they believe and why they believe it – even a JW, because they don't think at all. Too many Christians fear JW's, but all they are is better trained, because that's all they do. Part of their salvation is tied to how many hours they spend knocking on doors. All they know is what they're told in their little booklets, and what and how they are told to respond in their weekly or monthly 'roll-play' training sessions. Very few JW's ever attend college, and the ones that have are usually converts after the fact. So who exactly are we afraid of, and why? College educated Christians afraid of JW's! Simply amazing. (Now I don't mean to promote the idea that college is the end all; it isn't. My only point is the irony that educated people are scared to death to confront uneducated people.) We Christians have all kinds of 'worldly' education, but we spend almost no time training ourselves in in the knowledge of the word of God. Why is that? Why is knowing the word of God so uninteresting to us?

Christians, WE HAVE THE WORD OF GOD ALMIGHTY ON OUR SIDE! Either you believe that, or you don't. And if you don't, then why on earth are you a Christian? Are you just looking for 'fire insurance'? Go talk to State Farm or All State instead ...